Radio Show: Making Space, Letting Go
Listen here to the Radio Show hosted by Bernie Stephan of Ecologic, on KOWS radio in Sonoma County, California.
Or read the edited transcript:
This is Bernie Stephan, and welcome to the Ecologic Radio Hour.
Have you ever walked through your home and felt it?
Not comfort, not pride, but weight.
You look around and realize how much of it you don't actually live in anymore.
And somewhere in that moment, a question shows up for you.
Why am I still holding all of this?
For some people, that question is a choice, a kind of mental awakening.
They're ready.
For others, it's not a choice at all.
It's a life event, a health shift, a move that has to happen.
And suddenly, it's not just emotional, it's urgent.
And it's overwhelming.
Because this isn't just moving things.
It's making hundreds of decisions with emotional attachment to everyone.
Today's show title is Making Space, Letting Go.
And my great guest is Peggy Wonder, a professional organizer and friend.
She's a coach and guide who helps people navigate life transitions,
those moments when change is deeply personal.
People come to her, not just for help with decisions, but for clarity, perspective, and steady presence when things feel overwhelming.
Welcome, Peggy.
Peggy:
Thank you, Bernie.
Bernie:
Is this your first time on the radio?
Peggy:
Yes.
Bernie:
Oh, well, that should be fun.
I'm thinking we're going to have a great hour.
Would you be willing to take us all, the listeners, to a moment in your past where you're standing in someone's home knowing something has to change?
Peggy:
Yes. There was a gentleman with Parkinson's disease that had been fairly recently diagnosed, and in his space was totally cluttered.
So in order to bring in caregivers, it needed to be cleared so that it was hazard-free and safe for people to traverse, including him.
And the person who owned the house was ready to just take his stuff and throw it out.
I stepped in and said, let me help with this.
Bernie:
Nice.
And you offered some kind of emotional support, some empathy for his situation?
Peggy
Yes.
That was what he appreciated. I didn't come in judging him.
I came in working with him to understand what was important to him, like his art projects, memorabilia, and what he was ready to let go of.
Bernie:
Great.
Are there other situations that you've come across where it's like that one where the person isn't really choosing it,
but it's sort of being forced by their life transition situation?
Peggy:
Well, usually people are, when they come to me, they are somewhat choosing.
They're in some kind of transition.
They've either moved and they're unpacking, or they're getting ready to move,
or they're having a second child and need to make space.
So there's usually something that's motivating them to call on me.
And they have some degree of choice in the matter.
Bernie:
Well, that describes my wife and I when we decided we, well, we had to move from a three-bedroom, two-bath, just the two of us, you know.
But there was our bedroom, there was a guest room, and there was my office, a shared office, actually.
And we decided, well, we can save some money, go to a two-bedroom, one-bath, and a nice home.
And there's a lot of good about that.
But the idea of having to downsize after this many, we were married for over 55 years and had accumulated so much stuff.
And every move, I find it stressful to know what to get rid of.
I had made a rule for myself that I don't follow, and it was, if you haven't used something in a couple of years, you should get rid of it.
But I couldn't do that easily, even though I believed in that rule.
There was something in me that didn't want to let go of things.
But now, I actually viewed it as a good motivator.
If you were going to a smaller house, there was no choice.
And I had rented a storage room before, and what happens there is you just keep stuff in storage.
You keep paying at some point.
The stuff in it isn't worth what you've already paid for the storage room.
So I knew that, and I didn't want an outdoor storage unit.
But we've got the garage filled.
Cars are still parked outside.
But now we have a three-bedroom, and we survived that.
But I can see having to go through that again.
So I think a lot of people can identify with having to downsize.
Peggy:
Yes.
And when it comes to making the choices, I think there's a lot of different ways to approach it.
So you can look at, oh, I should get rid of these things that I've had for a period of time.
So that can be one rule that does work for some people.
But I often like to focus on what is it you want to keep?
Or how much space do you want to give it? we can assign an amount of space for a particular category of things.
So you kind of use the container or the space to limit it.
And then you choose what's the most important to me so that you focus on that, what you want to keep.
It's a little easier sometimes than focusing on what to get rid of.
Bernie:
That makes sense because you're kind of redesigning your interior to suit your current situation.
Peggy:
Yes.
Bernie:
Sometimes when we've kept too many things, we no longer feel comfortable in that space.
It's not ideal for us.
Peggy:
Right. And it's like also in some way you're living in your own past.
And are you still that same person?
You've changed by nature, physically, emotionally.
You have lived through many different stories and experiences.
And so these objects may belong to a past you that no longer fits or is no longer necessary.
Bernie:
Yeah.
As a realtor, I work with seniors who are living in a large home where they raise their family and they're very comfortable there.
They know the neighborhood, the neighbors, where to shop.
But they realize that they don't need this big house.
It's a lot to maintain.
And you have to hire a gardener, maybe a pool person, whatever.
It gets to be an albatross around some seniors who otherwise are still able to live an active lifestyle.
But the house is a bit of a burden around them.
So I've often tried to help advise them on downsizing and maybe considering something like Oakmont, a senior living community.
If not that, still a home but maybe smaller with less or maybe a condominium is right at this point in their lives.
And in many cases, they just don't want to even consider that.
It's too scary.
So, you know, I know how tough that decision is to handle.
And getting help with it, I think, is important.
So that's why I'm so delighted to have you on the program today because I see a real need for that.
Peggy:
Yes.
- - Break for Station ID and ads --
Bernie:
And we're talking about making space and letting go.
Not easy for most of us.
Again, if you want to call in, we'd love to hear from you.
But let me ask you, Peggy, what you're describing, it's about stuff.
It's what happens when everything needs a decision at the same time.
So part of your job is, what, helping people in that decision-making process?
Bernie:
Yes, lots of decisions.
Lots of small decisions.
Because when I'm working with people, I to accompany them through that decision-making process.
So I break it down as much as possible into small bits.
So we would choose a small area to work on or category, clear a space in the room to sort it out onto,
and then just go bit by bit and question by question.
What is this?
How have I used it?
Do I need it?
Do I love it?
Do I want it?
How does it serve me?
Does it serve me?
Bernie:
So you have a patience and a calmness to help build that trust.
Because it could be very scary.
Like if I came to help them, I'd probably push them.
And I wouldn't be very effective at it.
I know that.
Peggy:
I think life pushes people and their, you know, and their own needs and transitions.
So I help with guiding them so that they can make that move.
But I tend to go in gently.
I mean, if someone wants me to push them, I can.
But I really feel out where the person is at and work with how they move and try to sense what works for them.
Bernie:
And sometimes if they're elder people, they have adult children and they're thinking about legacy.
What are they handing off to their kids?
But they haven't dealt with that.
They haven't talked to their kids.
How do you address that situation?
Peggy:
Yes.
Sometimes people are assuming their kids want all their things.
And that's not necessarily the case.
So it's important to start looking at that possibility and gently considering that and finding a way to open those conversations.
One thing that my mother has done that I think is a good idea is to invite us when we're visiting to look around at artwork or special pieces and add our name to the back of those pieces.
Bernie:
Nice.
Peggy:
That also is really considerate because then when she's gone, a lot of things are figured out already and we're not in an already difficult state and trying to figure out these things.
Bernie:
You're absolutely right.
Because one of the things that a lot of seniors I talk to, why they stay even as a single person in a four-bedroom house, is that I'm leaving this home to my children.
But I have an example of that where the fellow's living in Inverness, a beautiful spot.
But his two children live closer to 101 and they live going to work and sending kids to school and stuff.
And I don't have the heart to tell them, but your kids may not want this home.
And I have seen very often those situations where the senior believes that they're keeping the house for their kids when they pass and the probate is happening.
The first thing the kids do is sell it so they can take the money and either divvy it up or buy a home that's closer to what their needs are.
But I understand that as the senior person, you have memories and you'd like those memories to continue.
Sometimes, as you said, you don't know what the value is.
I wish there was somebody listening who was like a personal property appraiser and might have an opinion about that.
Well, he's been a frequent caller.
Peggy:
Oh, that's great to know.
That's a great resource for me.
I'm always collecting resources in terms of how to redistribute so I can guide people and connect people to the people who can help them.
Bernie:
That's really important to have that kind of professional help if you are in a probate, if you are in a trust and having to settle the lawyers and filing with the court have to estimate the value of the state.
And then you have that question of what's a fair distribution amongst the kids.
And there actually are services that help with a way where one child chooses one and then the next child chooses the next.
And if they've had some appraisal on the big things, they can choose that, yes, that's worth it to me to choose now or not.
In other words, one can get help both in knowing sort of what an appraised value is of these things.
16:21 --> 16:22
That doesn't mean they're going to sell them.
It just means this is more than a memento of my parents.
Peggy:
Right.
But that is priceless.
And the idea is that we seniors can start giving away stuff early because we've got more than we need.
We have China.
We have crystal.
We have silverware.
We don't need all that.
Peggy: There's a wonderful book called The Swedish Art of Death Cleaning.
So it sounds scary, but it might even be The Gentle Art of Swedish Death Cleaning.
But it's a wonderful, lovely book in which the Swedish woman who actually just recently passed talks about her process of going through her things with her offspring in mind.
And the challenges of letting go and of offering things to the offspring now rather than waiting.
And then she can actually enjoy them enjoying it if they do.
And then, but really, she went through all her things so that it would be easier for the next generation.
Bernie:
That's a very nice thing to do for your descendants.
Because that time where you die quickly or without that kind of planning can really be tough for the kids because, on the one hand, they're suffering the loss of a parent, which is not easy.
And on the other hand, they're not wanting their sibling.
There's some sibling rivalry to get away.
And one of them now is the estate manager or the personal representative, executive of the estate, carrying out the will, carrying out the law.
And then the other person who didn't have that role may be challenging.
And when there is contention between inheritors of an estate, that's what drives these processes like probate for years.
At best, it's a half a year.
At worst, it's two, three, four years.
Because one lawyer on behalf of one inheritor is always challenging.
And I've seen that be such an arduous process that could be more easily solved with the handling of that before the death.
But that's not always possible either.
So sometimes people just want to have more space to do, they recognize, and they're coming to this decision and calling you.
Bernie:
What does that go like?
Peggy:
First, of course, I'm asking what's bothering them, what's drawing their attention or distracting them the most.
Because we want to address the most challenging thing, if possible, first.
On the other hand, we want to try to work on categories that are easier, not memorabilia, that we wait.
You know, those kind of vary, where we have a lot of attachment, those we want to work on after we get practice.
But what I look for is also I ask what's working in a space and try to get an idea of the kind of systems they already have in place or structures or practices that work for them.
And then work with those things that are already happening that work well for them.
Then, like I said before, we'll take a small area, start with that, because then it helps to build an experience of success.
Bernie:
What's an example of that?
Peggy:
Somebody I worked with recently in San Leandro.
They had already decided that we were starting with the clothing, so we did the first day.
But I realized later that that was something that, like, clothing also represents identity.
And I think that was a hard place to start, that if it had been up to me, I would have started with other things.
Because when we moved to other areas, it was so much easier.
So, she started with the typical thing of just, like, oh, what things do I have to get rid of?
And I said, let's back up a little bit.
First, we clear off the floor for safety.
I don't want any tripping hazards.
That's number one.
And also, because then, as we clear the floor, we get a quick win.
That floor has cleared.
And we get to see the results of our work right away.
You need that juice, that motivation, that success, that little win to go forward.
Especially if you've been really struggling and feeling lost and like you're failing over and over again.
So, we start with building success.
Bernie:
Well, that brings to my mind, the situation where I lost a lot of weight very quickly.
And I was very pleased with that.
So, one of the things I could do, which I always had a hard time with, is let go of clothes that were now too baggy for me.
So, I took that opportunity to clean house.
And I finally took some shoes that I liked but never wore.
And then I still had memorabilia, things that never fit anymore as an adult, but reminded me of my youth or something.
Like I have some lederhosen from Germany.
And I had some, like, star-spangled banner shorts that I wore in a skit.
And they remind me.
They make me smile.
But I've taken all those things and put them in a plastic box and put them at the top of the closet.
So, that now when I go to my closet, it's filled with stuff I can wear and can choose.
But I understand that attachment to clothing because one of the shirts I kept was something when I was a hippie where it had patchwork of a lot of different cloths sewn together.
And it was my one hippie memento.
Peggy:
Nice.
Bernie:
I finally got rid of it because I don't need it anymore.
But for a while, I did need it.
Peggy:
Cool.
You know, sometimes if you have the wall space, it's fun to hang things like the lederhosen just because they're fun to see, you know.
And they can become a piece of artwork, maybe just for a little while.
But I've done that sometimes.
Just hang up something that you enjoy, that lights you up.
Bernie:
What do you say to people who say, well, I can put this off.
It's not so bad right now.
I could wait until later.
Peggy:
Well, it's not going to get better, that's for sure.
It's, yeah, it's better to work with someone like me or a friend and find just the smallest step you can take.
And there's always, like, a way to break it down further, it feels like, so that you take – I mean, I've done it with myself.
You know, when I get stuck on a project, then I – like, I'm not great with marketing.
So I just, like, back it up.
Okay, what's the smallest next step I can take?
So then, ah, yes, I took that step.
And then what's the next step I can do tomorrow?
And so I can take the step and I can praise myself.
Celebration is an important, essential part of this process.
And I do a lot of celebrating, looking at the scene, celebrating, acknowledging the steps that we take and praising ourselves.
Bernie:
I tend to wait until it's all done and kind of push and drive through it.
And then now I want to celebrate, but not too long because I see other problems.
That's my personality.
Peggy:
We have different styles.
Bernie:
But it makes so much sense to break things down.
From my experience, that's the only way really to solve a problem, you know, is get clear about what your objective is and steps to get there.
It's hardly ever just one step.
Peggy:
For sure.
Bernie:
But it may be overwhelming because you see it as too many steps or there's one step in that process that you know you've never been good at.
And if that step exists, sometimes the advice is to get help.
Peggy:
Right. I think of myself as a navigator, sort of a human GPS for clutter.
So I help people guide them through the process and help them keep on track because often people will jump to, they don't know that they're doing this, but they'll jump to, okay, so where do I put this?
And I can say, we're not there yet.
We're still at the sorting stage and just looking at what you have.
But, yeah, that's a very important part of what I do.
Or we'll be looking through the closet and the person has taken things off the top shelf and they're moving on to the next one.
And I say, well, what else is that other thing?
So we get blind to our own stuff, you know.
And I bring in a different perspective.
Bernie:
Yeah. That's so true.
That blindness is a form of denial or something like that where you're not even aware that it exists and that's kind of the way you like it.
You know, it's not bothering you because you're not thinking about it.
But when something happens in your life where you have to move, it confronts you when you're packing.
Peggy:
You can't ignore it anymore.
Bernie:
So I've always thought of moving as a good thing.
But I grew up with my parents when I was young, moved all the time.
They immigrated to Canada from Germany when I was three.
And first we lived in a one-room attic that was cold.
And then we went to a, you know, one-bedroom, two-bedroom.
So I got used to moving all the time.
And I have that, I guess, wanderlust or whatever it's called.
And other people like my wife is more wanting to stay settled.
And we did stay settled in one home for 20 years.
And that was fine because our kids were growing up.
And I had a job change that made me commute 60 miles each way.
But I was so understanding how my family didn't want to move.
All their connections were there.
And to move to where my job was would be really disruptive in their lives.
Peggy:
Yeah.
Bernie:
But other times you don't have a choice.
Sometimes you either keep this job and move or you say goodbye to the job.
Or sometimes you have a financial situation where you need to downsize.
You're paying way too much on your mortgage or your rent.And the only way to stay in the area, I mean, you could move to another state where things are cheaper.
But, again, you have that problem of not being familiar.
And if you have family nearby, don't give that up.
Peggy:
Yeah, that's important.
But sometimes the move is towards family to another state, which is fine because the young folks are moving for their career and, you know, what their future brings that they're caring about.
So it's fine for the parents to tag along or come like, well, maybe it's okay.
Maybe the kids were escaping their parents.
--- Break ---
So with me here is Peggy Wonder.
She's the organizer you've been listening to.
And she has a company whose name is...
Space For You
And she has a website called SpaceForYou.Us
You don't serve the whole United States, do you?
Peggy:
Yeah, sure.
I've even worked outside the United States.
Yes, I can work remotely and I've done a lot of remote work.
It's amazing, but it is possible.
I even wrote a blog about that on my website.
Because, yeah, I helped a woman in Scotland even.
That's the furthest afield I've gone.
But, yeah, I guided her in a couple of sessions, tidying up her shed and her kitchen.
And I worked with someone in Nantucket.
A woman had gone from the Bay Area to her sister out there who was overly cluttered in her bedroom,
couldn't open the closet door anymore.
And over the course of a couple of sessions, we cleared it.
And I think her sister had felt very anxious about the process.
A lot of people are worried that I'm going to make them throw things out.
And that's not my job.
Bernie:
That's what would happen if they hired me.
Peggy:
Right. That's why I'm doing this job.
I mean, apparently there are organizers who are like that.
And probably some people need that and want that.
That's just not what I usually do.
Not usually what I'm called to do.
So, I was able to help them through, help her through the sorting process and the emotional process.
And she felt really happy and light.
And it was a really wonderful experience.
And it was over Zoom.
Bernie:
Yeah. That's nice.
You can have the visual with either FaceTime or Zoom where you can actually have them show you some things. Right?
Peggy:
Yes. So, I can be watching the room.
And guiding them.
I've also, this is not my strength, but I've also guided a couple people on cleaning up their desktop files online.
Bernie:
Well, that is an area that I'm constantly being challenged with.
I consider myself a very organized person.
I've been a computer programmer, systems analyst, a designer.
So, I've had to be in order to work with computers.
They don't understand chaos.
They can create it, but they don't understand it.
So, but still today, there is so much.
I make videos.
I prepare for the show.
I post on social media.
I prepare for speeches at Toastmasters.
And so, I'm keeping all sorts of files.
And it's taken me a while to really remember where I put them.
And then I have images that go with a certain subject.
But I like to keep my images together.
So, it's subfolders within, big folders within.
Is this on my hard drive?
Or is this out on my iCloud drive?
And I have let myself get dispersed in all those areas.
And I have figured out what I want to do.
I haven't moved at all yet, but I've taken a couple of important steps to get me to that.
Peggy: You've made a plan.
Bernie: I've made a plan.
So, I don't think I'll ever be hiring you for my situation.
Because I think I can sort of make myself do what I think needs to be done.
But I certainly would recommend you to people who are in that situation.
And I come across that in my real estate career often.
Because sometimes it's at the aftermath of someone having died and not having done a lot of planning ahead of time.
And that's coming in to help organize and maybe even help the inheritors make that a friendly process.
So that they don't wind up going through their lawyers and dragging it out for years.
Because nobody's happy in those situations.
And I've seen that too many times.
I feel like people aren't taking advantage of someone that could help them or be a bit of a mediator.
Be a bit of an enabler of putting things in front of them.
And dealing with it in a sensible way that's fair and equitable.
Peggy:
Yes.
I'm actively connecting with as many people as I can who might help people who are in those situations.
So that they will know I exist and can reach out to me for that help.
Bernie:
Probate attorneys.
Trust attorneys.
They are people who should listen up here and take note of Peggy.
And by the way, I've gone to your website.
It's a beautiful site.
Peggy:
Thank you.
Bernie:
It's really engaging.
So I would highly recommend that people that they check out spaceforyou.us.
So I want to change gears a little bit.
Sometimes people have sort of a hoarding mentality that isn't about any one thing.
It's just about letting go of everything.
Have you faced that?
Peggy:
Somewhat.
I have not been trained in that.
So I have only handled a little bit of that low-level hoarding.
And I'm getting acquainted with people who can handle higher levels.
I am working with someone right now.
The person I mentioned where we started with the closet, who's holding on to things to a degree that's creating problems for her husband.
So I'm trying to help the two of them by going through and just helping her feel at ease.
And I was very delighted to get an amazing review from him because he said they had actually called on many people.
And I'm the first one that she is wanting to work with again.
Bernie:
Nice.
You mentioned a relative saw that they could use your help.
But I think sometimes it's a child, an adult child, who sees their parents suffering needlessly and can get help.
Or a neighbor who cares about the neighbor and wants it.
So I challenge everybody listening:
If there's someone you see who's struggling with this subject, keep Peggy in mind.
Peggy:
Yes, it's a touchy subject because people can easily feel offended by that.
And so that's probably why my services have only been given as a gift to someone else once so far, where a gentleman gave my sessions as a gift to his parents who'd been saying for a while that they needed help.
And that was an amazing gift.
I worked with them for three days. It was very effective.
Bernie:
I'm a senior, so I relate to seniors.
But are there younger people who call on your services who are wanting help?
Peggy:
Yes, definitely.
Yeah, I worked with a young woman who's an occupational therapist for kids in Philadelphia.
She had a big house in Philadelphia that she had bought with her husband to renovate it.
It had not—they hadn't finished it before they divorced, so she was here alone with this big house.
And just stuff all over the floors and whatnot.
So I helped her over the course of two summers thin out her things, organize them, and pack them up for the move, and then helped her a little bit with the unpacking at the other end.
Bernie:
And have you gotten some feedback that, I don't know, makes you feel like you're making an impact that is positive and pleasing to hear?
Peggy:
Oh, yes, definitely.
People definitely express that they feel supported and accompanied, and they feel like they're learning, because that's part of what I do.
If people are open to it, I'm teaching them as we go.
I will show them what we just did, what were the steps that we took, so they can do it themselves.
Bernie:
So how has—is there an example of how it has changed someone's life outside of the home, just by having greater, I don't know, control over what's happening in their home and their organization?
Part of what I am wanting to do this year, actually, is I get a lot of opportunity to work with people on projects to create lasting change.
I am eager to work with people through the whole change process to go deeper and stick with it.
Because, unfortunately, the bad news is, containers don't fix the problem.
And even bringing in a professional organizer doesn't necessarily fix the problem.
It's going to just revert after a couple weeks or whatever time.
So that's why, to make lasting change, we need to work over time together.
So maybe we set up that closet in a way that is finally working for you.
But then—well, like, actually, I'm working with a florist right now.
And she really, she just—actually, when we started talking, she was in tears because she's always had trouble with organizing.
So we started with her business supplies, since that's her income, that's critical.
And organized a whole setup in—she works out of home, so it's in her dining room.
We cleared off the dining room table, which was amazing, and organized the cabinets and distributed things that didn't belong there.
And we're planning to continue working over the following months.
Our first step when we work together next time will be to go back and look at the structures we set up and see what's working and what's not working.
And she actually came to my workshop last week, and so she heard about those steps.
So that's really cool because she's learning—so she's learning, and she's identifying, okay, so this is working, and this part's not working.
So next time we get together, we'll look at this.
Bernie:
Excellent. I came to that workshop, and I remember you went through five steps.
Do you want to go through them a little bit?
Peggy:
Sure.
So I'll just—so assess, sort, assign homes, contain and organize, and maintain.
So we start with assessing, which is looking at what's happening in the space, what's happening for you.
Like you might be talking about, I got to move.
What—and then we look at what's wanted.
So what are your objectives?
How do you—you know, if you're needing to downsize or move, that's clear.
But it might be you're not able to work successfully in your space.
Like right now I'm working with someone who's got papers all over the place.
What is wanted is that she can work in her space and be respectful of the other people in the house and have people over.
So that's what's wanted.
We look at our objectives.
Then we go—once we have assessed, we move on to sorting.
And you need to clear a space, a surface, so that you can sort.
Choose a small area, like I mentioned before, to ensure success.
Empty the contents onto that surface.
Start sorting them.
That allows you to see.
Sorting helps you to see what you have.
It also gives you a little bit of perspective because you're putting it onto a somewhat neutral ground outside of where it usually is.
So you have the chance of seeing your objects in a different way that might have less sentiment attached to them.
And from there, we can start to sort into the major groupings of what to keep and what to let go of.
We might refine that.
Letting go might mean giving away, recycling, returning to people.
Keeping might involve repair or moving to a different part of the house.
And then we remove the things that are moving out of the house.
And then that's one of our celebration moments is to go, look what we did.
We made decisions.
Because, you know, it's challenging to make those decisions.
So we give ourselves kudos.
Then we assign homes to the things that we're keeping.
That's figuring out where in the house do things belong.
And we might ask ourselves, what does it go with?
Where would I look for this?
Those kinds of questions help guide us in deciding where things can go.
And, of course, with some objects, you will start with the question, what is this?
Sometimes you have things you don't even know what they are.
From there, we want to organize and contain.
So we organize in your organizing style, which is a little hard to demonstrate when we're on air.
It helps to have pictures because some people love to see everything.
And it gives them aesthetic pleasure.
Whereas other people, it's too much stimulation, distraction.
It makes them anxious.
We have to clear the surfaces, put things behind cabinets.
It can't be visible.
And those people often, it'll look like their place is immaculate.
But you open a drawer and it's loaded or the closets just fall out and they cannot find anything.
So we figure out their organizing style so we can work with it.
And then we look at containers.
What containers to use to organize those things into within the cabinets or whatever they have.
What containers do we use?
We use what we've got.
Don't buy containers.
Don't buy more stuff.
It's okay.
You know, down the road, after we've completed the process, a few weeks down the road, you can use, you can take the dimensions of the spaces you've created to divide things up to, so that you know what size containers to buy.
But that's not now.
Just use what you have.
And you'll find that you have a lot of containers in your house once you go sorting.
So then we come to maintaining.
It can be really exciting to sort through and organize all your stuff.
It's really thrilling, really satisfying.
But maintaining, how do you maintain that? That is challenging.
And that's where, on the one hand, the lighthearted attitude that we bring to the whole process is really helpful.
It makes us more flexible because, as we know, the seasons are going to change.
Our lives are going to change.
No matter what, there's going to be some need for changing of our systems as we go along.
And then we do well to look at our habits.
What habits create clutter, support clutter, and how can we revisit those, adjust those habits, create new practices, routines, and get the support for doing all those things?
Bernie:
Well, thank you for taking us through that process.
It doesn't sound overwhelming at any step.
You've broken it down very nicely.
I'm going to admit to the last time we moved, we labeled every box to where it went.
And a lot of them said garage on it.
And most of those in the garage, they're the garage stuff, like my tools that I put out on shelves and things that I get to.
But a lot of it is like mementos, books, things we don't want to get rid of, even my parents' things and my wife's parents' things and things that are in the family that couldn't make it into a China cabinet or something.
They're still in boxes in the garage.And we always tell ourselves, well, we'll get to that someday.
Someday when we have time, we will sort through that.Believe it or not, we've been in this house now six months and we haven't even attempted that.And I have a feeling that it's just a convenient way for us to forget about them and avoid the hard decision of actually throwing something out.
Peggy:
Well, this is where it can help to connect with other people.
And I'm looking forward to organizing what I call motivation circles, where we get together on Zoom.
Whoever has whatever projects they're not getting around to, whether it's that or a professor who grades exams or whatever project, getting ready for tax season.
And we get together on Zoom.
We tell each other the project we're going to do.
And we just create a kind of container, a space and a sense of friendly accountability to get to these projects.
Bernie:
You just mentioned a project that hit an emotional note with me, and that's tax.
I've always filed on time.
I usually start like in April, start panicking the first two weeks and start.
Or this year, no matter how I tried, I knew I couldn't make the 15th, so I filed the extension.
Now what I'm afraid of, I'm going to treat October like it's April.
And I have to force myself to tackle something that I know I can get through.
It's just not easy, and it takes time.
You've got to break it down, right?
I've taken the first step of sorting all of the saved receipts.
And I've downloaded from my credit card and stuff the last year's transactions and grouped them and have them in a spreadsheet.
So I've done all the preliminary work.
And people say, give it to a tax.
I do my own taxes, always have.
I feel like with the help of TurboTax, it's actually easy.
It just takes a little bit of time.
But yeah, this is bringing up for me how we probably all have in our world that is so complex.
And I want to say, I believe we are suffering from all of us having this problem of being too privileged, having too much money, having too much stuff.
There was a time in generations, two generations ago or four, they didn't have so much to have this problem.
And even when they moved, it seemed like they could load up the Model T and put stuff on the roof and move to California or whatever it was.
So this is a fairly recent problem that really relates to how we seem to keep buying stuff.
So one remedy is for us to early on decide, do we really need this that looks attractive?
It may say, I can solve a problem for you that you haven't been solving, but does it create another problem?
So I have my theories about what this complex world that we're living in is doing damage to the planet.
And then in the end, by reducing what we own, we'll also reduce the clutter.
So I'm being a little philosophical now, but for me, it's important that we start thinking living simpler.
And living simpler means have the tools you need, but don't buy the tools you don't need.
I used to think when I was a young man, and I hadn't really learned from my parents how to repair things and stuff.
I always thought half the job was going to the hardware store and buying the tool or the screw or the whatever I needed.
And then I would bring it home, and then I would sit there because then I didn't realize I didn't actually have the skill to do that.
And a lot of projects that I tried that involved the saw, I would do it wrong.
I'd ultimately have to hire somebody to do it anyway.
So I was taken by sort of the advertising on products that show you the benefits, but overlook the fact that, okay, you now have another thing to keep in your garage.
And for guys, for me, it's always been about organizing my garage and what do I keep.
I finally came to a conclusion that it's better not to keep any of these screws nuts or bolts because if I need a particular one, the hardware store is already doing that for me.
I go there and buy the smallest quantity that I need of that.
And then don't try to duplicate what the hardware store does by keeping it organized in case one of these things might come up as something I might need.
It's actually complicating my life way beyond.
So we're coming up to the end of the hour.
Peggy, again, if people want to contact you, what do you recommend they do?
Peggy:
They can visit my website.
They can text me at 707-234-5281.
If you're thinking Peggy might be able to help on something, she's going to say it one more time slowly.
707-234-5281.
Well, I'm wanting to thank you, Peggy, for helping us, helping me with this show and our listeners with a very important topic that I think many of us sort of realize in the background but don't often bring to the foreground.
So I'm glad we were able to do that today.
And you've been a great guest.
So thank you, Peggy.
Peggy:
Thank you.
And let me also thank the listeners.
I appreciate that you're listening.
I hope that you're listening.
I hope I'm not talking to the air and nobody shows up.
But I'll be here again in two weeks.
And I'll keep on my path of dealing with economic and ecological issues.
Remember, the root of both of those words is eco.
And eco comes from the Greek meaning home.
And so I believe that our solutions are all close to home.
The solutions some people look to are global.
What is the U.N. supposed to do?
What is the national government supposed to do?
You know, what should we demand that everybody do nationally?
All that nonsense doesn't go anywhere and really get the job done, in my opinion.
What works is that we work within our communities.
We work within our neighborhood.
Not the virtual world, but the real world.
Now, I'm guilty of being a problem, part of the problem set.
But I feel like the more we can focus on being local and working with that local community in person
and solving our problems with our neighbors, getting to know our neighbors,
that I think is the future.
So with that, I'm going to sign off and hope you'll tune in two weeks from now.